If you haven’t done so already, please read this series from the beginning, starting with Message Karl-0, which is just below Karl-1.

The writer of this segment, Jim, is the most generally knowledgeable person I have ever met and totally devoted to “free market” concepts. I do not know how to include his cartoon onto this message.

Neil
——————–
FROM JIM

Wealth Concentration (the Gini index, etc.) gets a lot of airplay from populists and progressives alike. I recall William Jennings Bryan and his “Cross of Gold” speech. (He was so well captured as the cowardly lion in
The Wizard of Oz by Frank Baum). It is the age old quest for a fair an equitable outcome, regardless of effort. It sounds good and feels good, even “noble”. But it is a chimera. There is a need to distinguish between wealth as measured by “monetary” scales and wealth by quality of life, happiness, spiritual well-being, etc. ABove the most basic level, Money, in and of itself, has no correlation with the factors that determine what makes a life good and complete. This, fortunately, is as variable as we are as individuals. Given that on a global scale, monetary wealth is even more concentrated than within the USA (if you look at the big picture, the lion’s share of the wealth is in a few countries, and within them a few major industrialied cities) is is accurate to say that ony the “wealthy” 2% of the world’s population is happy? And that they must forcibly distribute their wealth? (Beyond progressive taxation, which already strives to accomplish this.) Some would resoundingly say “yes”! Some, acting on whatever motivates them, do give most of their money to the poor and needy. Interestingly, the IRS data shows that the lion’s share comes from middle and low income people. (But certainly not from Joe Biden when his $900 donated over 10 years was made public; Obama was also pretty tight but that was before he had much money from his books). Some give away their lives to help others. If this were FORCED behavior, would the world be better off? Not sure. One respondent explained that health care in the USA is better because doctors have to
work their rear ends off to become a doctor, and this is because it is difficult and pays well. (You don’t become super rich, but you live well.) Sounds simple but a lot of truth. I think that wealth concentration from ILLEGAL activity (as it is in much of South America,
Africa, Asia and has become an issue in America and Europe now) is the problem. People get upset and revolutionary when there is the perception that wealth is being accumulated ILLEGALLY, not that wealth is accumulated per se. Is anyone complaining about the $161 MILLION contract to CC
Sabathia (NY Yankees baseball pitcher), especially because he is performing well? Did people get upset at Bernie Madoff or Barney Frank or Jeff Skilling and their scams? Yes. I believe that LOVE of money (not money, which is a necessary fiat for exchange) is the root of evil. People should stop emphasizing income inequality and work to strengthen the application of laws to ensure that the playing field remains equal and that we remain a country of laws, not emotional rehetoric. Capitalism is not a moral system, and people who try to look to it for a code of morality will always be disappointed. See attached cartoon! Brgds, Jim

If you haven’t done so already, please read this series from the beginning, starting with Message Karl-0, which is just below Karl-1.

More interesting questions asked, including “Why the big rush?” It does seem to me that when we are about to make such profound changes in the American way of life there should be a full and complete disclosure and dialogue. Karl’s point about following the money also seems valid. The administratiion gives 16 billion dollars to AIG to bail them out and nearly a billion goes to bonuses for the execs of a company that needed 16 billion for a bail out. How could that be allowed to happen? How much of that billion will come back to those who gave it out?

Neil
——————————-
Great, I got your attention Aija,

Your right, we are in terrible trouble, and the government is not the answer, but just follow the money and you will find that those which we call the leaders of our capitalistic system are the same people pulling the strings of government. Don’t be fooled by the crowd in charge changing their hats as they speak to us. Please, please, please follow the money and you will find those claiming to represent free enterprise and those benefiting from government programs are all the same. Doesn’t it just seem such a contradiction that, there are people losing their homes, losing their businesses. Malls empty of retail entrepanures and facing default. Banks closing and 401ks tanking. And yet the stock market is now over 10,000 and PSE&G announces a 20% rate increase and the oil companies are realizing record profits. I’m telling you don’t be fooled the worst is yet to come and it will be the American and world population who suffer. I’ve told the story before. The crowd’s gathered around the winter palace, and the placards they carried called for Liberty against the tyranny of Czar Nikolas. Yes those crowds were sincere, but they ushered in the era of Bolshevism, Communism, and decades of death and misery for millions. Let’s not be so shallow as to allow the same mistake twice. Your right Aija it’s not about, just health care it’s about the fact that Capitalism itself must evolve and reject the concentration of wealth in just 2% of the population. Remember in the 50, 60, and 70′s we had a bell shaped distribution of wealth and we were using free enterprise. Let’s not call what we have now the same, “WHAT HAPPENED & WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE” Critical questions must be asked, and solutions to allow free enterprise to evolve in a modern society where opportunity to share in the American Dream is still Possible. Hundred Million dollar salaries with people standing in bread lines is not the answer………..When you have salaries like that, you concentrate wealth and power in the hands of very few, and you have politicians in the pockets of those same people. Let Congress share the same health plan that we the American public have. I truly am looking for people to start thinking and articulating real solutions. I don’t hear it from the president or Congress.

Karl

If you haven’t done so already, please read this series from the beginning, starting with Message Karl-0, which is just below Karl-1. So far, the most interesting question I have heard asked is “Who are these 47 million people without health care insurance?” Aija also raises some interesting questions.

Neil
—————-
Karl,

Let me preface by saying, that I have never been involved in any political discussions until recently. Now I attend Tea Parties, Twitter, follow daily Washington’s shenanigans.

I believe I understand what you attempted to achieve by starting this discussion. You raised a lot of interesting questions and topics. However, the health care issue is only a symptom of a disease in our country. Cap & Trade is another fluff to obscure the true dilemma.

There are far deeper problems than health care.

If it had been only health care reform, it would have been warranted. Why the rush to ram it down our throats? Remember, the gov’t wanted to push this through without a debate or having read the bill!

On the corporate front…have you noticed…

Lately, many of our elite have begun to demonize corporations. I sense, that this hatred has been implanted by our power grabbing politicians whose sole purpose is to destroy Capitalism. Why are they doing it? Is it about control?

If anyone has read Saul Alinsky’s blueprint on implementing Socialism, it’s all there! (Alinsky was BHO mentor!) Why the hatred towards corporations? Free enterprise is not part of the plan for Socialism. You must demonize corporations, convince the people that corps can no longer handle the auto industry, run banks, insurance companies, schools, health care. Give power to the people (ACORN, unions) It’s all part of the plan. Make the people grovel for bread…

Of course, there are some bad apples, but most of our major corporations have a way of policing their activity via competition and their shareholders. It has never been the governments job to bail out corporations. True Capitalism allows corporations to grow or fail. Most of them started out as small businesses and grew to prosper into successful publicly held corporations. Without free enterprise, we would not have achieved the prosperity, abundance of jobs, innovations, new products. What is immoral about that?

The same thing applies to affordable health care. We need health care reform, not government run health care. We need Tort reform, transferable policies, Interstate, etc. Doctors and hospitals can police themselves. The insurance premiums would be cut drastically due to competition. Look what happened to Ma Bell and the auto insurance industry. This would cost us nothing!

The government has not been successful in running or operating any agency to date. They have failed miserably. What makes you think they’ll learn now?!

The government has grown too big and has not proven to me that they can handle our money, let alone my health care. Government is the problem, not the solution!

We must all make an effort to have our voices heard. The first Tea Party I attended 3/09 consisted of 25 people. When I went to 912 Rally in Washington DC, there were 1,700,000 people! Of course, MSM barely mentioned it. It is beginning to leave an impact on our officials. We may be able to slow down these “enemies” within our borders before they do too much damage.

I am attending “Audit the Fed” or “End the Fed” rally on 11/22 in NYC. If you would like to attend, let me know and I’ll send you the info.

Aija

Karl and others may be drifting into more general commentary, but it still applies to the healthcare issue. The following is Karl’s response to the initial comments of others. Karl calls himself a conservative, and would be horrified at the thought of voting for a Democrat, but some of his comments seem like the kind of thing YWC!LI would endorse.

Neil
—–
FROM KARL

Friends

Your, response to my question is well thought out and logical.

Your assuming I’m arguing Government should run health care, because the
system is broken. Let me assure you that this is not the case. I have
however real questions and reservations as to the role of government within
the context of history, Time, and the human condition. I believe it can be
argued that capitalism through the fault of our own devices has evolved into
a runaway corporatist society. Let me clarify; The economy is no doubt in
trouble, The distribution of wealth is not the preferred bell curve and I
don’t believe it represents those that work hard and take responsibility are
wealthy and those who do not are poor. It also demonstrates that power is
in the hands of the haves, and the lack of influence and justice is
concentrated in the poor. You similarly use classic definitions to enforce
your argument. The mere fact that someone else said it means nothing to me.
However, you do mention that the general health of the population is in the
interest and the welfare of the state or in other words the government. A
population riddled with, polio, anthrax, plague, H1N1….. I gather you
recognize would compromise our status, legitimacy, and international
prestige and as such threaten our very existence as an nation. So again we
can argue that the health of the nation or our population can reflect on our
autonomy in the world community. A decimated, health ravaged citizenry
compromises our status as a strong virulent society, commanding the respect
of others. If we take that logic to the obvious conclusion, that it is in
the interest of the Government, to have a healthy citizenry. I hear the
argument; the government is incapable of administering to anything. The
same argument applies to free enterprise administering to same. We either
fix the government or fix capitalism. The point I’m making is we tend to
answer questions like a swinging pendulum….. either or…..Show me a
solution where a poor person with a brain tamer gets the opportunity to
live, like the wealthy DuPont grand child who hasn’t worked a day in his or
her life but will receive the best care money can buy. Or O.J. who can
walk away from murder because of fame and money. Or the fact that it is
virtually impossible to be a President, Governor, or Senator unless you have
money. I’ll accept any solution as long as it does not imply that because
the other end of the pendulum arc is compromised with inequities that are
obvious, lets blindly choose the antithesis. I need to see some proposals
that legitimately answer my questions or concerns regarding Government
control or those regarding runaway capitalism.

Karl

Below are two responses to Andrejs’ comments on Karl’s essay, one by Aija, who I do not know, and one by Jim, who I do know. Jim doesn’t say much here but I expect more from him and what he says usually makes a lot of sense.

Neil
—————————
From Jim: “What an excellent, well-reasoned summary, even referencing Thomas Sowell, a favorite author. Thanks very much for sharing and ppulling these thoughts together!
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry”
———————————
Andrej,

Excellent! You have summarized it eloquently. Your first paragraph should be mandatory reading by all of our Government officials. Once they agree to abide by our Constitution, we can move forward. “We are a country of laws, not men.”

The outrageous bills proposed have little to do with actual health care or saving our planet. I read most of HR 3200. It’s a monstrosity! These people who wrote it couldn’t care less! The control freaks are in power and they know they must move quickly to push through their agenda while we are in a stupor from all the madness. Unfortunately, this is very divisive and unproductive.

At the same time, it is done intentionally to create chaos. This is only a distraction. How do you think all the world dictators have come to power? Watch what they do, not what they say!

Aija

This is the first response to Karl’s essay. I do not know the writer personally. He is a 40 year old licensed civil engineer who manages large scale contruction projects in the NYC area for an international general contractor. He makes a number of very interesting points.

Neil
—————
Karl-

I see you are still grappling with the question of the role of government. I have some 200 plus post secondary school credits under my belt, some of it covering government, public sector economics, politics and philosophy, so I will at least give you a classic definition of the role of government. Government should provide for the safety and security of its citizens from both internal and external dangers (i.e. police fire department, various basic public services required for health…sewers and the like, military). Government should provide regulation and equitable use of public goods. A public good defined as anything in the public domain that can be utilized by a private citizen for free. This spawned all the anti-trust, interstate commerce laws and the like. And finally, the government should uphold the Constitution…at least that is what the President swears to do during his oath to office…basically uphold and enforce the law of the land. I’m not talking about common law or anything relating to God, morals or ethics. Obviously the law of the land has been a work in progress since the founding of this country…but good bad or indifferent…the government makes law, in theory for the good of the public, and they should uphold it.

Everything after that is probably overstepping the bounds of what government should do. Our government often attempt to cross the line into social engineering…changing the behavior of people. This has been the greatest downfall of our government. Government has really botched this from inner city housing projects and misguided infrastructure works to wealth redistribution tactics, taxation in general and the inefficient use of those dollars, disadvantaged business laws, etc. (see the works of Thomas Sewell). The level of basic necessity or entitlement of every citizen (or now non-citizen) is now the debate. Because of cost is an issue, let’s dismantle the current system and start fresh. Government jobs for everybody…we know how hard our public servants work…right?

What interests me about the health care debate is the fact that our elected officials in Washington are not recognizing the “pink elephant in the room.” The current argument has been set up as socialized health care vs. private. Government should take over health care because the “system” is broken. So we have to peel the onion here to get to the heart of the issue. My first question here is why is the general quality of medical care in the US the best in the world? I would welcome a legitimate argument against this, not some isolated example of some tribe of people in the hills of South America which suffer from no diseases. Show me an example of a modern society, large scale where public healt care is anywhere near the quality as the US. None of this type exist. Why do the affluent around the world seek out American universities to get their medical degrees among other degrees in medical fields? The answer is in the reward. It’s lucrative. Many don’t understand why health care and pharmaceutical costs are so high. It’s a two part answer. A. the product and service cost and B. the insurance cost (will dissect this one in the summary). A. the cost to get a medical degree is fairly high to begin with. It may cost $500k over seven years to get tot he point to pass a board exam, plus the opportunity cost for this…add another $200 or 300k for a white collar job over seven years. Doctors want to get some return for this effort and risk. Pharmaceutical companies spend millions developing drugs, going though clinical trials just to get the product to market. They would like to get that money back, some profit and risk reward. I don’t think that’s too much to ask. A doctor owns a mercedes and a condo in Florida. I should hope so after breaking their ass in medical school. Why do universities cost so much these days…well…not to take a stab at left vs. right, but you may want to ask our liberal friends about that one. But here is the real killer, Part B. Malpractice insurance costs and legal battles over frivolous lawsuits. We need some serious tort reform in this country!!! These costs get passed on to the consumer. And everyone wonders why medical and pharm. cost are so high. Our lawmakers in Washington do nothing. Sure, they are all lawyers…why would they want to cut their friends’ legs out form under them. Lawyers do great in this country, because the courts allow it. There is your “pink elephant.” Was the medical system broken a few decades ago?? There certainly is the need for a system that can weed out the bad apples, but the legal system has to bring their cost back down to earth.

So instead of our lawmakers saying that the system is broken and the government should take over, how about fix what is there, with the first task of tort reform. This would go a long way in many industries. Our government doesn’t have the guts to do it, so they point their finger at every other aspect of the problem. Government does not have the ability to properly assess risk, market forces, manage a process, determine adequate cause and effect, properly asses costs (our tax dollars). If our government takes over health care, the effects would be disastrous.

As a side note, I’m still waiting to see a real study of the people that do not have health care in this country. What are the demographics. Do they work? Are they here legally? How many wide/flat screen TV’s do they have in their house. More priorities out of whack. Why should the government facilitate people that mange their finances poorly? If healt care costs $5k or $6k a year for personal insurance…maybe we wouldn’t buy so many foreign cars, becasue that is about the import tax on a foreign car. Enter the debate of entitlement and level of entitlement. Why our representatives in Washingtoin want to give everyone free healthcare on the backs of those who work the hradest in this country. Our boarders will really be over run if we go there. My son was born at St. Joseph’s Hospital in Paterson nine years ago. We chose this hospital, because we had a choice and because it was the best rated pediatric hospital in the area. It jointly cost my and my wife’s insurance companies about $45k. My wife and child were in the hospital for three days. We did not spend a nickle. I could have bought a small house in the mid-west for that kind of money and had a mid-wife do the honors, but chose not to. St. Joseph’s has a policy of never denying care to anyone that walks into their hospital. I’m sure that cost was part of that bill.

Here are my thoughts, but from an ideological stand point, I’ll never buy into socializing health care. It truely is throwing the baby out with the bath water. It will be doomed from the day such a program is signed into law.

Andrejs

Shown below is the message from Karl that started the string I am planning to distribute. Karl is in his 60′s and before he retired was the general manager of a small manufacturing and sales operation in northern NJ that produced pollution control equipment.

Karl was born in eastern Europe and came to the US as a child. English was not his first language which is the reason why some of what he writes includes words that sound like what he means to write.

Neil Yeoman
——————–
Health Care

By Karl

Let me reassure all of you. I’m basically conservative, you might even say to the right of Genges Kahn. But, Republicans and Conservatives are missing the boat regarding Obama pushing the pendulum to the left. Corporatist America and their apologists Limbaugh, and Hannity are not helping the cause to permanently discredit the policies Obama, Pelosi and Reed. We have oversimplified who is on the Right or on the Left. If your against Pelosi and Obama that does not put you in the camp of Limbaugh or Hannity and visa-versa. Right and Wrong are similarly not necessarily on opposite sides of the spectrum and lie on the same vector as Left verses Right.
This is a multi dimensional universe and similarly a multi dimensional political and cultural conflict. Linear thinking has the US and for that matter the world polarized and paralyzed with fear. The question we as citizens must all come to terms with is; what do we feel is the role of government. Now to simply say, government’s track record is poor when it comes to administering programs is an incomplete over simplified statement, even though apparently true. Might we ask, can government be made more efficient and effective? Case in point, (the military), we might argue that it’s the government’s role to administer military operations. I believe few people would argue that we should have privet militias that we would hire, or that we would sub-contract a foreign nation to fight our battles abroad or defend us on our own soil. So it becomes clear that we are that which sets us apart from other nations as to how and what our government does for us. Therefore reasonable men and women can disagree, I believe meaningfully, as to what our government should do for us.
We as a leading nation in technology, resources and wealth should be able to administer not just a national militia but a whole wealth of programs that set us apart substantially from other oppressive and niggardly administrated regimes. Or, an option is status quo, where private enterprise administers the social reforms of our nation.
Let’s take Healthcare; under, the controls of the free market, most people have good health care in the US. Having said that, many people I mean legal citizens don’t have health care. You could argue that a nation where multitudes are without care is subject to calamitous cosequenses. I have good health care, because my wife is a teacher and I am covered under her plan until I’m 65 years old. Now if she were a waitress or self employed. I would probably have to spend $8,000+ a year to receive comparable coverage to that which I have now. $8,000+ on a fixed income is a devastating amount for a middle class American. Now of course, I can opt for less coverage and greater deductable. But this is the age where I need health care the most. It’s likely I will need restorative dental care, glasses, or other prostatic devices or equipment. The reality as a Middle Class American is that I will not be able to afford them. A wealthy nation such as ours could opt to protect its citizenry simply because we choose to. Not because it’s a rite, but because as the richest most progressive country on Earth, we choose to.
Most government programs have no basis as a “human rite” they are simply arbitrary. We as a society choose to include the option to better improve or advance our position in the world community. I don’t find anything wrong with that, if the plan is administered fairly and achieves a net benefit overall. I believe there is a moral imperative for a civilization to limit profiteering on human life and health. That’s my simple argument for government to administer health care. Like I said, you can argue government’s track record in administering any program is poor. And in truth you would probably be right. So the argument is not weather government should administer health care but how do we make the administration of same, free of corruption, affordable and fair. Let’s work vigorously as to a system that is repaired and it will spill over in many other inequities we all complain about. I believe this alone will improve the nature of Government and our faith in the System we call Capitalism under Democracy. We owe it to future civilizations.
I welcome commentary, or disapproval of my thoughts. Like I said reasonable people can disagree. All I ask is, let’s keep talking points and emotions under control.

Karl

As food for thought, and with Marvin’s support, I am going to post a series of messages from people whose comments I have been monitoring. I belong to a five person (all former employees of what is now the largest privately owned company in the US) cyberspcae discussion group all of whose other members are to my political Right and for all of whom I have the deepest respect. All have technical educations and all but me have held postions with significant commercial responsibilities. Their names are Karl, Jim, Verne, and Ole. All voted for GWB twice. (I, of course, did not.) The postings will start with a message sent by Karl. He included some people who the others in the discussion group do not know who are his friends. For continuity and convenience I will number the messages. This one I will number “Karl-0.”

I posted messages before on the YWC!LI site, but most of them have been in the Energy and the Environment area. Although my friends in the discussion group think of me as a liberaI, I consider myself a political moderate.

Neil Yeoman

The Metro New York Health Care for All Campaign mourns the passing of our dear friend and colleague Marilyn Clement, a long-time New York leader in the fight for universal health care. Marilyn passed away yesterday, August 3rd, here in New York City after a long illness. We extend our heartfelt sympathies to her family and friends. We will sorely miss her vision and leadership to our local health care justice movement.

Marilyn was a long-time champion of a single-payer national health insurance program, most recently serving as National Coordinator of Healthcare Now, which she founded a few years ago. During the 1992-4 Clinton health care reform period, Marilyn led “Health Care, We Gotta’ Have It!”, a New York City-based organization of women, particularly women of color, who advocated for fundamental health care reform. Through her health care justice work, she inspired multiple generations of health care activists through her personal courage, commitment, and passion.

Marilyn led a rich, decades-long career in social justice activism, including civil rights, women’s rights, human rights, and peace. She worked with and through a variety of organizations, including the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, the Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom, the Center for Constitutional Rights, the United Methodist Church, and the Interreligious Foundation for Community Organization, among other organizations. A full story of Marilyn’s life can is available at http://www.healthcare-now.org. Donations in her memory can be made to the Center for Constitutional Rights or Healthcare Now.

At a recent event honoring her in New York City, Marilyn eloquently spoke about her life’s work – a video of her speech can be viewed here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYnbqnXKqKQ

The struggle continues in her memory,

Mark Hannay
Director

Metro New York Health Care for All Campaign
One Hudson Square
75 Varick Street, Suite 1404
DC 1707 AFSCME
New York, NY 10013
212-925-1829
212-925-0806 (fax)
metrohealth@igc.org
http://www.metrohealthcare.org